Scott Rusnak: The Missing Ingredient in High Performing EOS Teams

So often I walk into a new engagement and I see these teams are afraid to speak their mind because they're afraid they're going to get I use a really mean word shanked at the door as they're walking out. But then we build this trust and they begin to have these conversations and have the right kind of conflict. Then that founder, that owner, that someone flips the entire pyramid of the five dysfunctions on his head and says, "Let's go results first, trust last, and that's where everything starts to fall apart. It doesn't even have to be the founder; it could be somebody else on the leadership team who's doing something nefarious or political and building steam for what they think is the right solve, only to sabotage the entire IDS." 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  00:45 

I'm your host Debra Chantry-Taylor and as you know, I'm passionate about helping entrepreneurs lead better lives. Today's guest is I know we're not meant to have favourites, but he's one of my favourite EOS implementers. He is a high performance coach to both businesses and has worked with sports teams in the past as well. He is also the best-selling author of "Who Is the Architect of Your Life," and he too has a massive passion for helping people live better lives. I can honestly say that he has changed the way I approach my personal life, the way I approach my EOS practice, and I always go get so much gold from his podcast sessions. Today we are going to be talking about trust in your leadership team. We're going to be talking about the five dysfunctions of a team and how you know sometimes we tend to jump to trying to get results without putting the foundations in first. So we're going to talk about how you recognise these things and what you can do to improve that trust in the business in order to get the best results. Please welcome to the show Scott Rusnak, who is an expert EOS implementer. Welcome to the show, Scott. It's been a while. It has been a while, and I always love our chats. And I just there's so much value in people listening in. So I can't wait to see where we're headed today. What are you catching up to speed? Like, what have you been up to in the last few months, Scott? 

Scott Rusnak  02:04 

Ah, Debra, as you know, I'm a fan of being the architect of my life, and I decided the the world decided I was going to be 60 years old this year, and so I decided I would ski 60 days to celebrate being 60 years old. So I'm. That's in the works. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  02:22 

What number are you up to? 

Scott Rusnak  02:25 

I'm at 00, sorry. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  02:27 

When? So when do you turn 60? Have you turned 60? When? 

Scott Rusnak  02:31 

Oh, I already have. Okay. I gave my time to someone else that week, which I love them, and it was great. But after you know that was end of March, and I was like, you know what? I got to get my 60 days in before I turn 61. So, November the second, which is a Monday, I will be in Snowbird, Utah, just after opening day to start my quest. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  02:54 

That is awesome. I shall follow with them with much excitement. It's funny actually because I've talked a lot about this on my podcast. You have inspired me to also architect my own life. I've just got back from three weeks in Zimbabwe, which had been booked in my calendar two years beforehand, and I was going whether whether I had the time or not. Oh, it was in my calendar. I was going, and it was fantastic. But I've also got another quest talking about the 60 skiing days and 60 years for 60 years. I want to do 77 countries and seven continents by the age of 70, and I'm currently 56, so that is now more. I'm working towards, and I'm keeping a track of where I'm going, and so yeah, it's great. 

Scott Rusnak  03:31 

Well, I'd love to meet you in one of them, so we'll figure that out after. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  03:34 

We certainly will. But we're going to talk a little bit more about business today, and I know that the work that you and I do with the EOS teams. It is our passion. It's what sort of drives us. But there is sometimes dysfunction in teams, isn't there? I don't know. I can certainly only speak my own experience. But often I work with leadership teams that, on the surface, it all looks lovely, and they all, you know, there's no issues, and they're all wonderful, and they're all happy, and everything's great. Until we start to dig a little bit deeper, do you come across that yourself? 

Scott Rusnak  04:02 

I would say that every engagement over the last 18 to 19 years has got some dysfunction. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  04:08 

Okay, tell me a little bit about how this presents itself. 

Scott Rusnak  04:14 

Well, case in point, let's give credit where credit is due to Patrick Lencioni, the author of one of the best books out there, the five dysfunctions of a team, and as you and I both coach and teach, is that the most important rung is on the bottom. That's called trust, and teams with an absence of trust lack the psychological safety to speak their mind. So often, I walk into a new engagement and I see these teams are afraid to speak their mind because they're afraid they're going to get. I use a really mean word, shanked at the door as they're walking out. But then we build this trust, and they begin to have these conversations and have the right kind of conflict. Now the scary part is a lot of founders and owners are like, "Okay, enough of this touchy-feely stuff.". They want to skip the rest of the pyramid. We've had a bit of conflict. I want to go straight to results. And that founder, that owner, that someone flips the entire pyramid of the five dysfunctions on his head and says, "Let's go results first, trust last." And that's where everything starts to fall apart. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  05:18 

And what does that look like, Scott? How do you see that sort of presenting itself? 

Scott Rusnak  05:22 

Well, we let's just say we've run a level 10 meeting. So at EOS, we run level 10 meetings, and we dig into the issues towards the end of that meeting. We identify, discuss, and solve. Leadership team goes around the room. No politics. Everyone has an opinion, and when the solve comes into place, Debra has decided she's going to do ABC. Everyone agrees. A week later, the employee that was not in the leadership team that realises ABC is not going to help help them goes and sucks up to the owner, the boss. Boss, you look great today. You've been really smart. I love working here for the last 10 years. I'm not going to do what you're telling me to do, and here's why. Instead of boss going back and saying, "Wait for a minute, we're going to have a level 10. Let me think about that," they agree with that tenured employee for the sake of maybe just helping them a bit, thinking they're doing the right thing. They go back to the level 10 meeting in a week, and somebody says, "Well, how come we let this happen?" Well, the boss, the owner, says, "Well, because I thought it was a good idea." Well, then you've got four or five people on a leadership team going, "Why are we solving anything if you're going to be the point of contact and the point of authority all the time?" So that right there, we call that whiplash because they get yanked and they're not sure what they're doing. And famously, our really good friend Mark Winter, who wrote Rocket fuel, another plug there, calls that an end run. Someone runs around the other side with the ball and doesn't create the play they're supposed to. So there's a long-winded answer to that. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  06:50 

But it's really interesting, isn't it? Because I love Mark. Mark and I have had a couple of conversations about both his Rocket Fuel and his visionary book, and just the things that he comes up. It's fantastic. But we talked about end runs, and I think most people think it's the visionary kind of coming in and stepping over people and going to people, but it is often the other way around, isn't it? It's somebody going around the leadership team because the whole they'll get a better answer from the boss, or they'll they'll use their their wiles there to get what they need. 

Scott Rusnak  07:19 

I'm going to go suck up to Debra and look for a better answer that's going to suit me, or I could. It doesn't even have to be the founder. It could be somebody else on the leadership team who's going something nefarious or political and building steam for what they think is the right solve, only to sabotage the entire IDS, and that breaks leadership teams, breaks sports teams, it breaks governments, it breaks families, and it's really important. We agree to something, we need to high five and move forward. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  07:45 

So, what do you what do you suggest when that happens? You know, the leadership team is coming back into the the level 10. They're kind of going, "Well, this is this pointless, right? There's no point in us making these decisions because the boss is going to override them anyway." How do you start to build that trust back again, or what do you need to do to kind of knock it on the head and stop it from happening? 

Scott Rusnak  08:05 

Yeah, well, Debra, do you ever find yourself in a situation as your coaching that you're the family counsellor to a certain degree? A 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  08:13 

little bit, yeah. 

Scott Rusnak  08:15 

Yeah, I have one 

Scott Rusnak  08:17 

client. He introduced me to his wife, his his business marriage counsellor, and what they did was a little bit tough. And with this client, I said, "Look, the five of you have made a decision, and there's division in the ranks. In order to build trust, we need to bring that employee in, that group of employees in, to have a discussion on why we solved this, and so what they did is they called a special session. I met with them. There was about 12 people in the room, and I facilitated discussion on why we chose that as a leadership team, and then why did we go this direction? And so people got their feelings hurt, and unfortunately, somebody had to get let go because they didn't follow the core values in the decision, but it made for a better team. So it's it's 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  09:04 

about sort of tackling, having the conversation. But I think what you're also alluding to there is having some context as well. It's like bringing the two people that are going around, bringing them all together into one room, and then being able to have a discussion and bringing some context into it. So we understand how we got to that, which which is part of what I love about EOS in terms of when we work with leadership teams to put together the vision traction organiser and whatnot. It isn't just about the owner saying this is what we're going to do. You must go and do it. It's actually bringing the team on the journey, making sure they understand why we're doing certain things, making sure they have bought into it and been on that journey with the owner, 

Scott Rusnak  09:41 

yeah. And sometimes employees feel like they're being dragged around, and maybe they haven't done the right job of rolling out EOS. So everyone understands the commandments or how we operate. But sometimes you've got to reset. It's a hard reset, and maybe it has to happen more than once in a company, and that's fine. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  09:58 

And as you said, sometimes it. Might mean that the wrong person might need to be let go because they're just not the right fit. 

Scott Rusnak  10:05 

Could be the highest performer, the best. You know, they just crush it all the time. But if they're not following your core values, we'll go to one of ours, humbly confident. Let's say you've got a superstar salesperson that is just crushing the numbers, and it becomes them beating their chest and saying, "Here's what we've got to do," despite everyone else and making up their own stories. In my experience, when that person, I've got one client in particular that they had someone that was creating about 40% of the revenue. They got rid of this person. Everything was just fine. They're more profitable than ever. Their customers are thrilled, and it was almost like they had a staff party a couple weeks after this person was let go. They were so worried, but it worked. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  10:47 

But there's a fear, isn't there? I'm sitting here thinking, if you're a business owner sitting and listening to this, you're a star performer. The fear is, but if they go, we're going to lose all of that business. So the example you just given shows that that is not necessarily the case, and in fact, I would say, in my experience, 99% of the time that isn't the case. But there is a fear. So, if I'm sitting here as a business owner and I've got that fear, what would you say to them? 

Scott Rusnak  11:11 

It's normal. By the way, I'll role play with Debra. You're human, and that's good. I'm glad you got some anxiety. You started this business with a cause, so can you explain that cause to me? So why did you? What's your purpose? So we have a conversation around that, and then we get to the next step, which is, hey, Debra, what were the core values you founded this business on? Okay, so we get to that. We'll go back to humbly confident, do the right thing, do what we say, help first, and then have a conversation. Where does this person fit in the people analyzer that we're talking about? So when we bring in the tools, we talk about the cause, the purpose, why they're doing this. It becomes much more, it becomes much easier to then say the right path is to give this person strike one perhaps, or strike two, or to remove them altogether. So use the tools to the fullest. It'll make your life a lot easier. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  12:07 

I think they take the emotion out of it, and it's it's often the the important part. Is we can get driven by our our gut instinct. Not there's anything wrong with gut instinct, but it can be sometimes a bit misguided. And if you use the tools, it can take the emotion out of it. You can approach in a much more logical sense. Yeah, I completely agree. It's helpful to do that. 

Scott Rusnak  12:26 

Well, and I'm going to have a little fun with you right now because often there's an elephant in the room. Debra, do you know that there's an elephant in the room right now? 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  12:36 

Yes, I do. 

Scott Rusnak  12:38 

You do. It's over your right shoulder. Yeah, I 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  12:40 

know. I can see it. I can see it. Don't bring it up. Don't bring it up, Scott. Leave it. Leave it there. Leave it there. 

Scott Rusnak  12:45 

Yeah. Right. Yeah. So it's our job as EOS teachers, coach, facilitators, are called implementers, but teachers, coach, facilitators, to then facilitate that difficult conversation to say, Debra, do you realise there's an elephant in the room? Do you have enough EQ to realise there is? It's right over your shoulder, but that's how we call it out. We don't take anyone to task, throw anyone under the bus. We just have an open, honest conversation. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  13:14 

And I think that's the key. I've certainly started talking about this with clients in my session rooms as well as like if you're dealing with the issue and not the not being personal about it, then it take it does take the emotion out. But also, that's how you. My cat has just come and joined me on my lap. Yeah, you're taking. Yeah, you're you're dealing with the dealing with the issue, not the person, because that person is not necessarily a bad person just because they don't share your core values, and we've talked about this before. They're a square peg in a round hole. They can go and be a square peg in a square hole and be a whole lot happier. It doesn't mean that they're a bad person. 

Scott Rusnak  13:51 

Doesn't it? Doesn't well, go back to the five dysfunctions: trust and then conflict. Whenever I start my sessions, I go back to the five dysfunctions of a team, and I say the right kind of conflict is we attack the problem, not the person. So let's take the personality, the ego, you know, everything they've achieved out of it. Let's attack the problem and figure it out. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  14:11 

I do want to throw something at you because I've had this a couple of times now. I mean, obviously, an economic environment at the moment is tough, and there are some companies that are sort of struggling, and they're they're they're trying sort of desperately to hit their numbers, and I mean, not not all businesses at all, but there are some out there that are doing that. And I think the owners kind of go, but you know, we haven't got time for all this fluffy stuff. We've just got to get on. We've got to get the figures in the door, you know. And that I think that's part of why possibly they are focused on results rather than the other stuff. What would you say to that? 

Scott Rusnak  14:42 

100%. In fact, it is fall in North America. It's spring where you are. There's a season right now in front of us, and I'm not trying to strike any fear. But economic headwinds are in front of us. Got to be careful. How you talk about it, the states, because there's always the left and the right, but we got 40 trillion in debt. We're fighting a war. I don't know if ever, ever be won. Diesel has doubled. Tariffs. There's all kinds of things going on right now that people are very worried about, and it's real. And I try to address that, and then I have a conversation around. Okay, that's what's going on in the world. We can't affect all that, but how can we make the right decisions in the next 3060, 90 days that follow our VTO and help us achieve where we want to be while ignoring what's going on in the world to a certain degree and create our own path? So it's very tricky right now. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  15:39 

Yeah, it certainly is, and it's worldwide. It's I mean it's not just the US. It's same in Australia, New Zealand. I'm so so lucky at the moment. I'm going through two elections: one here in Melbourne, Victoria, and one in New Zealand. So there's a lot of lot of stuff flying around out there. But as you said, we can't control it, and it it doesn't have to control our business either. And I think the teams that are successful, like the ones I see, certainly are the ones that say, "Okay, we can't control that. This is what we do have some control over." However, I do know that that there are people, especially owners, who you know, when looking at the numbers, they're just going, "Yeah, but we just, yeah, I know that maybe the salesperson isn't the right person. I know that maybe this person is right, but we just, we just need the figures. We need to get on with 

Scott Rusnak  16:19 

it." Well, so there's another book I'm going to put a plug out for. So far we got the five dysfunctions. We got rocket fuel. There's a fantastic book that I'm not much of a reader. I'm a listener. It's called Soundtracks. It's by John Acuff, and I'll get you the link so people can look it up in the show notes. But he talks about the soundtracks, the stories you're telling yourself. You can use those in your favour, or you can use those to your detriment. It's just a fantastic book. He's a hilarious author, and I highly advise anyone listening to this who's going through some mental gymnastics to dig into the book. It'll help them. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  16:56 

So, just give us a little bit of the premise of it. So, how what's the the theory behind it, or the 

Scott Rusnak  17:01 

yeah, the basic theory is we can have doom thoughts in our mind, like oh my gosh, the sky is falling, henny penny running around, or you could use that to your advantage. Wow, the sky is falling. Maybe I should put a bunch of buckets out and I'll create a water gathering farm or whatever it may be. I was talking. I've had fair amount of check-in calls today. It's Friday, usually Friday. I do a lot of check-in calls, and I've got someone who's facing some considerable headwinds. And so we discussed his plan for next week, walking into level 10, what his what his message was going to be, and the direction they're going to go in. And part of their VTO, they put it right in there that this is sustainable. In oh 809, they just they got knocked out at the knees, and they were able to keep majority of their employees. And the ones that didn't want to stay were let you know allowed to leave. He's not saying that's happening in the next year or two, but he's prepared to have that conversation with people to remove that fear. So he's trying to get across the soundtrack that's going through his head into the rest of the employees' minds. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  18:06 

That is actually a really great idea. I mean, I think I've done that naturally myself in my own life, but it is it is important. And I think I think both Gino and Mark Winters talk about this as part of being a good visionary is also working on your own on your own self to make sure that you can be the best possible leader, and that includes looking after your mind to make sure that you're not spreading your doom and gloom stories to the rest of the team. 

Scott Rusnak  18:30 

Debra, do you mind if we talk about the Confident Mind book by Dr. Nate Zinzer? Oh, I'd love to go. Another fantastic mindset book just talks about the shooter's mentality in the sense that he talks about Steph Curry, one of the greatest free three throw shooters ever in the NBA. He missed 65% of his shots. Imagine that if you were in business and you missed 65% of whatever would be, they'd call you a failure. But Steph had the mindset to be like, well, the next one's going to go in. So if we can have that mindset that the next one's going to go in, or we're going to get this, chances are it's going to work in your favour. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  19:08 

I think it just just a thought just struck me. You know, when we're working through the three-year picture with clients, we often sort of you know we we talk about what it looks and feels like in three years' time. There's some cold hard numbers, absolutely, but then there's the what does it look and feel like? And at the end of it, when we put this all together and we repeat it back, and we ask them, "Can you see this in your mind's eye? Because if you see it, you can make it happen." And I know that some people resist that a little bit and kind of go, "Oh, this is all the secret stuff. Just write stuff down. It will happen." It's like, no, no. Essentially, there is some. There's proven science behind this. Is if you can picture it, and you know it can be done. You, it's not just going to magically happen. That you start to subconsciously put things into play that ensure that you do get there. But if you actually sit there and you listen to it, and you can't see it, and you can't see that three-year picture, then it's highly unlikely you won't get to it. Better believe in it. You better. Be able to see it, you know. There's this concept called Vision Quest. People like, oh, that's crazy. That's a bunch of you know child's play, but it's not. Yeah, I just left a quarterly this week with Bryn Gibbs and Mark Spencer, the owners of Consumer Fusion in San Diego. Shout out to them. But about four years when I started working with them, they set a 10-year target that was rather aggressive. Like, okay, well, we're going to try to get to that. We're doing it's year four. 

Scott Rusnak  20:30 

We're going to do their annual in Cabo in January, and they're like, Scott, we're we're more than halfway there, and it's you know year 3.75. They're very confident that they're going to get there, and with that, all the employees have rallied around, and they have a very high-performing culture. But I'll go back to the trust and the things they do on Instagram. They're throwing parties all the time and doing things. I don't know. You don't have to be Elon Musk to get results, and they're doing a heck of a job, 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  21:02 

and is that having that belief that you can do it, but also yeah, as you said, having the the trust in the team so they can actually have the difficult conversations really work. And I think another thing I've been noticing a little bit, especially with slightly younger entrepreneurs, mass generalisation here, but the slightly younger entrepreneurs, because of AI and they're using AI a lot in their businesses, but also using it as a visionary to to help it to come up with plans and things. They they want to rush through the process, and they want to you know they've got the AI to kind of help them write their VTO, and they've got the AI to help them write their rocks, and they've and they've and they've got everything, and they just want to give it to the team and go. Here's what we need to do, and they expect the team to just get on with it. And I have to slow them down and sort of say, "This, you know, who likes being told what to do? Do you like being told what to do, Scott?" Sure. No, no. I was like, "Well, hold on a second." I've already said nobody I know that no likes being told what to do, and so that's you know that's part of it. Is like if you just go out there and you just tell people this is what we must do, most people aren't going to buy into that. They're not going to to want to be part of it. We have to bring them on the journey. They have to have an opportunity. And I always say to the owners, it's like you know we'll probably get to what you wanted to get to anyway, but we've had some really healthy conversations. We've had some discussions that they've they've had. They feel like they have some ownership of it. But if you're just telling them what to do, who's who wants to do it? 

Scott Rusnak  22:31 

Let's go to book number six today. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  22:34 

Okay, fantastic 

Scott Rusnak  22:35 

book called Drive, written by Daniel. Yeah, 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  22:38 

yes, yeah, I love that book. It 

Scott Rusnak  22:39 

talks about the collective wisdom. Now, this isn't creating a socialist organisation where everyone gets. You know, that's not what I'm talking about. It's that it's that all-consuming group drive to get somewhere together. I'll go to. I was born in Canada. I remember watching the Olympics from Lake Placid. My beloved Canadian Olympic team got knocked out, but a bunch of college kids in 1980 took on the world. They took on the Russians. They took on the best athletes in the world, and they won the gold medal because they had the same desire, and they were so unified as a team. They didn't like the coach sometimes. That's okay. That's a that's an important part, but the results were incredible because they had the same drive and same desire, so they pulled it off. Drive, yeah, great book. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  23:30 

There are so many great books out there. I've actually just finished reading at the moment "Deep Work" by Cal Newport. Yeah, as as a visionary myself, I do tend to get a little bit sort of you know, distracted. And one thing, so when I got back from being three weeks in Zimbabwe, I didn't take any technology with me apart from my phone. I deliberately went, "No, I'm there for three weeks. I'm there to see animals. I'm there to see family. I don't need to be disturbed with things." So if I needed to, I could hop on my phone and check my emails. But I found myself doing it less and less and less as the weeks went by. And so then when I got back from there. I was like, okay, I I actually keep putting my phone down and forgetting where it is, which is really unlike me because I used to be almost kind of you know integrally tied to my phone at all times and jumping on board for things really really quickly. And then when I started reading the Deep Work, it made me realise the effect that was actually having on me because he talks about the fact, as soon as your brain is kind of switching between things, or even listening to music while you're trying to work, you are splitting the brain function. It takes around about 20 minutes or so to really get back into full flow. And so, if you're trying to do a million different things, you're not actually getting the the the true power and value of your brain, so that's been my latest read. Have you read it? 

Scott Rusnak  24:44 

I have. It's very good. Yeah, 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  24:45 

it is good. Very good. Well, I listened to it actually. I didn't read either, but yeah. 

Scott Rusnak  24:50 

Well, same page. I just I'm I read something and I fall asleep, but I listen to something on my mountain bike ride quite often. And I'll take a notepad and I'll write down good ideas and thoughts. And it really, it's really helpful. And those clarity breaks for me, I'm going to take one tomorrow, about four hours, go on an easy ride by myself, and I can just think. And that really allows me to push forward and help the people I'm trying to help. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  25:16 

Yeah. Again, it's just one of those things. I don't know if you clarity breaks while I was away in Zimbabwe, but I think that again, people kind of go. But we're so busy, and we've got so much going on, and we've got to get this done, and I haven't got time for it. But you and I know that you don't make time for it. You you start to operate in a completely different state of mind, and you're you're in that sort of fight or flight mode as opposed to the real clarity of thought mode, and it can be dangerous. You can you can make some really bad decisions when you're constantly on the dome. 

Scott Rusnak  25:46 

Yeah, yeah. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  25:47 

So you use your bike ride to do your clarity breaks. 

Scott Rusnak  25:51 

Bike ride, skiing, walking my dog. This one's a little out there, but I have a routine two or three times a week where I do an infrared sauna for about 20 minutes, two minute cold plunge, back and forth, and I put these earplugs in my ears because sometimes I'll be talking. I just shut the world off, and it's just really helpful. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  26:11 

I use the hyperbaric oxygen chamber. That's I've got one of those at my health club, and so I do the infrared, and then I go into the hybaric oxygen chamber, and it's 45 minutes where you cannot take any technology, so I take a good old-fashioned pen and paper, and I just yeah sit inside there, complete silence. Obviously, feeding my body oxygen was not a bad thing either. It's a great way to actually just ask some of those questions of yourself and see where your thinking is really at. 

Scott Rusnak  26:36 

There you go. We come full circle to the take a clarity break, take your foot off the gas. Every day you should do 1520 minutes of that, and once a week you should spend two or three hours just by yourself, absolute nothing, absolute silence. You may need a pen and paper, whatever it may be, but do that. It'll help reset your brain. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  26:56 

Yeah. Okay. We're just going to circle back again, just back to the trust thing before we kind of wrap up, so if people have been in here listening and and and I see this all the time, I was just watching a Tony Robbins video before I came on board here, where there was somebody in his audience who stood up and said, "Ah, yeah, but you know, it's not true, and it doesn't work for me, and I've tried it, and it just doesn't work." If there's a if there's an owner sitting here listening, because I'm going, "Yeah, but you don't understand. My business is different. You know, we've got this pressure, and we need to get results. I just don't have the time to to work on that fluffy trust stuff. What would you say to them? 

Scott Rusnak  27:31 

Right to it. Like if if a bunch of robots in you, then yeah, how would you have trust? You just trust the technology. But human beings at their core, without psychological safety and trust, you're not going to get anything out of them. So your deepest work happens when you have psychological safety, that trust, knowing that people aren't going to do end runs, stab you in the back, and go in their own direction. That's when real results happen. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  27:57 

And as a business owner, you you sometimes the end runs, I think, happen. You you don't necessarily recognise them because you think you're doing the right thing. How would you suggest they catch themselves with that? 

Scott Rusnak  28:10 

Write down the solves from the meeting, the key solves. Put them in your notepad. I've got a little. I'll show you this. My favourite little device, tiny habonachi journal. These are all my notes from the air, and I walk away from the session. There's a lot of chicken scratch there, but here's the solves. Here's what we decided to do. And full day session is on two pages, so less is more. I know what's going to happen, and then my teams will put it into an online platform like 90.io. Here's the decisions. Here's where we're going to go, and that should be etched in stone. This is the direction we're going. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  28:44 

We're not going to vary from that. 

Scott Rusnak  28:47 

Yeah, and if it's not working, bring it back to next level 10, or have a same page meeting and discuss why. Don't just run out in the wilderness and tackle it on your own. That doesn't help anyone. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  28:55 

Okay, that's reminding me another one last question I want to ask you as well because I see this a fair bit. Is like a level 10 meeting happens once a week, but people always tend to say, "Oh yeah, but Debra, it couldn't wait a week." And I always say, "Why was the world going to end if we didn't do it in a week?" But it's it's sometimes easier, and I use that in inverted commas or in quotes, I should say. But it's easier just to deal with it there and then, than to have to wait until the level 10. What would you say to that? 

Scott Rusnak  29:24 

Maybe it is. If it's not an end run, if you're not going against, you've set these rocks, these priorities. If you're going to make a decision, though, that is going to change the direction, is going to go around the corner of leadership team, you stop right there and say, you know what, Debra? I think I have a solve, but can you give me a day or two? Like, if the hell did you see a really good CFO you see other day? Well, the house is burning down, and you're outside cutting the lawn. That's crazy. So you've got to we got to make sure the house doesn't burn down. So it's burning down. Take care of it. But if it's a leak. Faucet, and you've got your wrench out, and you're going to be smashing the faucet. Why not take your foot off the gas and get it done the right way? So sometimes you do need to react. Bring in the integrator. Bring in that person that is the yes no that creates that harmony in the business. Just say, look, everyone's not here. We can't have a level 10. We've got a big issue here. I need your opinion. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  30:22 

That's actually really smart, and I think you're right there. It's you don't do it on your own. But as you said, if it's something that's in line with what you've agreed to in terms of rocks, in terms of direction, then absolutely, it's fine to solve it outside of a level 10. But if it's something that's going to change, then it should be part of the team. If you really can't wait for that, then get to your integrator, get a second opinion. 

Scott Rusnak  30:41 

Yeah, and I tell my clients all the time, you're not here to serve EOS; it's here to serve you. And if that solve needs to happen before the level 10, because the house is burning down and someone's up there cutting the law in the front yard, well, bring them in from the front yard. Better have that discussion because it sounds like that may need to be solved now. So there, there are times when that needs to happen. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  31:06 

Yeah, and it's it's one of those things I hear people say, and our EOS, it's rigid, and I will say it's not. It's a framework. It's it's designed to put some boundaries, some rules around the game. And and you know, you and I both love sports analogies, but you know the reason we love sports. By the way, my latest fad is pickleball. I'm completely obsessed with pickleball at the moment. But the reason I love it is because you know how to play, you know how to win points, you know how you get a penalty, you know from the scoreboard or the score the scoring system who's in in being to charge, and that's the rules in the game, and that's why we like sport and and business is the same, and EOS just provides the the rules and the boundaries around it. But there are times when you have to make exceptions. 

Scott Rusnak  31:48 

Yeah, if you got an aeroplane and you're going to go from Sydney to Los Angeles, if you get one degree off track, you can land in Portland or maybe Puerto Vallarta, right? Now, if you're on that aeroplane and there's a tonne of turbulence, there's a storm in front of you. Okay, we're still going to go to Los Angeles, but we've got to go up and around and around this way. We're going to, you know, course correct. You might arrive a little bit later, or maybe you found a trade wind by going to the south. You get there earlier. Just as long as you know the destination, you've agreed on the vision, you'll be able to get there, and that's very much so like EOS. You have a flight plan manifesto. You check before you take off. Here's the destination, and sometimes you have to course correct. That's okay. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  32:32 

Have you got any last words of wisdom? I always say that I love for my for my guests to share, you know, three top tips or tools, something that people can go away and actually do something with because I love the the motivation, the inspiration. People sitting here listening might go, "That's fantastic," but what can I do? 

Scott Rusnak  32:48 

First of all, you need to take care of yourself. So I believe that self care is not being selfish, and so I would love it if people got together with their partners, their spouse, their family, and designed some really cool things into the year 2027. This year is almost over, so why not start making really cool plans so that when you're in a meeting or you're doing something and you know you want mentally want to choke someone and be like, oh, what are you talking about? You can take your mind that hey, we're going to Park City as a family. We're going to go to Hawaii. We're going to Australia? You know, it doesn't have to be anything grand, but have those little tent pole moments set up for the year that are like peaks and valleys. Get those straight right away before 27 happens. Yep. By the way, my my my planner is already up for 2027. Planned it many months ago. That's good. That's good. Yeah, I think it's a first. And even if you're not an EOS run company, even if you're not in business, you're just watching this or listening to it. Why not listen to the five dysfunctions of a team? I think it's probably the best book when it comes to organisational health, family health, team health. So there's suggestion number two. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  34:00 

Beautiful. Yeah, it is a great book, and it is an easy. I love Petra Lincoln's work because it is easy to to listen to or to read. He writes in a way that it's not hard work. 

Scott Rusnak  34:09 

Yeah. Suggestion number three is take that phone, that pesky little device, and why not take it to the bank on a Friday at four, and lock it in a lockbox, and then come back. You know, as bankers are lazy, come back Monday at 10 when the bank opens, and go back and get it. The world is not going to stop spinning because your phone is not in your lap. So put it all away. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  34:34 

I can attest to that. As I say, it's it's been interesting having that time off and not really relying on it. It's like okay, don't actually need it. Needed to take photographs, but then I also took a real camera as well. So that was the fun part was getting into real photography. 

Scott Rusnak  34:46 

Yeah, a real camera. My son has a real camera. It's pretty cool, and he's like, I don't want to carry my phone around. It's pretty neat. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  34:52 

No, I've I've got I've been very fortunate. I've got a professional camera with a massive lens, and so I've got to take lots. Seven and a half 1000 photos. Toes I took, Scott. Now they're not all good, and there's going to be some terrible ones in there. But I was just obsessed with all these animals I kept meeting, so I've got to go through and sort all those out. Okay, again, thank you for your time. I always appreciate you giving your time and sharing your wisdom. I always love our chats. I always take something from it. There's a whole bunch of books that we've mentioned in there, so we will make sure that those are in the show notes so you can find them. And if you want to get in contact with Scott, best way to get in contact with you, Scott? 

Scott Rusnak  35:27 

LinkedIn or my website, scottrustnack.com. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  35:31 

Beautiful, Scott. Thank you for your time. Much appreciated. 

Scott Rusnak  35:34 

Happy Friday. Thanks, Debra.